Emerging Litigation Podcast

Authentic Business Development for Litigators: Stop Chasing Cases and Start Building Clients with John Reed

• Tom Hagy • Season 1 • Episode 109

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Waiting for lawsuits to present themselves is the worst growth strategy a litigator can have. 

In this episode, I get to speak with John Reed, founder and chief relationship builder at Rain BDM and host of Sticky Lawyers, to rethink business development from the ground up. His most popular episodes was about Bob Mionske, an Olympic road racing cyclist turned "bicycle lawyer." Give it a listen.  

With a background spanning law, marketing, and sales, John helps attorneys translate the language of business development into practical strategies that work even within law firm cultures. Can you imagine? Known for blending creativity, emotional intelligence, and big-picture thinking, he brings a unique perspective on how lawyers can stand out authentically and effectively in a crowded market.

John shares how traditional litigator traits—decisive, fast, commanding—can win in court but backfire with clients who value collaboration and reflection. He outlines a practical model for defining your professional brand through role, skill, context, and style—and explains why style may be your strongest differentiator.

We also dig into how introverted lawyers can grow client relationships through substance, not small talk, and how remote mentoring can actually strengthen early-career development with the right habits and feedback.

Whether you’re an associate building visibility or a partner looking to expand trusted relationships, this conversation will help you make your practice more resilient, referral-ready, and strategically aligned with how clients actually buy legal services.

Thanks to John for sharing his insight, humor, and practical wisdom on how to turn authentic connection into lasting business growth.

Tom Hagy
Litigation Enthusiast and Host of the Emerging Litigation Podcast

______________________________________

Thanks for listening!

If you like what you hear please give us a rating. You'd be amazed at how much that helps.

If you have questions for Tom or would like to participate, you can reach him at Editor@LitigationConferences.com.

Ask him about creating this kind of content for your firm -- podcasts, webinars, blogs, articles, papers, and more.

Tom Hagy:

Otherwise you sound fine.

John Reed:

He's telling me I can't switch my mics. So hmm. Let me go out and come back in again, if that's okay.

Tom Hagy:

Okay. Oh sure. Try it. Now I'm waiting while John goes out and comes back in again. This is me doing that. This could be the kind of bonus content you get when you watch our YouTube channel, which we're developing and which you're all gonna go to and listen to and like and watch. I figure if I say it, it could actually happen.

John Reed:

Hopefully this is better.

Tom Hagy:

Wow. Okay. Geez, you're in you're like you're in my skull. That's good.

John Reed:

I like to leave an impression.

Tom Hagy:

Welcome to the Emerging Litigation Podcast. I'm your host, Tom Hagy. I get to speak today to John Reed, who is founder and chief relationship officer with Rain BDM. We're going to talk about business development for litigators. I introduce him and introduce this live on tape. So I'll end it there. I hope you enjoy it. I did the introduction. I'm going to do it again just for amusement in case I screwed up anything. Today we're going to talk generally, we haven't titled this yet, so I'm going to figure out after we talk, I'm going to come up with a very clever title that people are going to look at that and say, gosh, I have got to listen to this podcast.

John Reed:

I just built there's like five, six minutes that are usable.

Tom Hagy:

So well, so far we don't have that. So generally, this is uh business development for for litigators, and we're gonna talk a lot about personality types too. Now, you are you have you have founded Rain BDM. That's Rain as in Precipitation BDM.com.

unknown:

Correct.

John Reed:

According to your according to your marketing uh lingo, you help lawyers build practices that reflect their strengths and their personalities, which is important, obviously their professional and personal goals. You've got a background in law, you've uh got your JD from Michigan State University College of Law with honors. I grew up in Ohio.

Tom Hagy:

I saw that coming, by the way. Certainly not my parents.

John Reed:

Mine didn't either, and I didn't I didn't disappoint. Now you yeah, I'm from I grew up in Ohio, so I am I supposed to hate Michigan State or is it Who am I supposed to hate?

Tom Hagy:

No, you you can you can be okay with Michigan State. You can't like that other team up north.

John Reed:

Oh, you know what? Uh I remember now in Ohio when Michigan State played the University of Michigan. The Ohio State was was always backing Michigan State. So not that I followed it at all. So I never did follow basketball, as my dad used to say. I know it's football. And also, you uh you've got a background in marketing and sales. This is you've got that's a lethal combination of things you have there. You've got a Bachelor of Science degree in marketing from Babson, also in honors. Hmm. And who knew? Someone studied, someone cracked a book. That was my issue. And you're also host of the Sticky Lawyers podcast, which I, in my first introduction when I was here by myself, I said I assumed that was about lawyers who have small children. It's not even remotely funny. But I did I did look through some of your episodes, which is very cool, so I will highly let's let's let's boost it here. I liked some your recent episode just from this this month, from big law associate to in-house counsel to legal entrepreneur. I like that. Navigating the Amazon, an IP lawyer who defends online marketplace sellers. I see what you did there with the Amazon. Then you got a guy in an extremely electric, uh green shirt, an Olympic road racing cyclist, turned a pioneer bicycle lawyer. Man. I I okay. I'm gonna I'll link to it if you don't mind. Please do. Absolutely. I haven't listened to that one. Uh and then something this is a very serious gentleman talking about a serious topic. Bench strength from judge to judicial misconduct investigator and prosecutor. Whew. I'd listen to that just for the jokes.

Tom Hagy:

And we had a million of them. They were just rolling up.

John Reed:

Oh boy, I'm gonna apologize to him and to you because uh, like I said, I'm a little I'm a little jacked up here. Um I'm glad to be uh healthy. And um, it's my second round of COVID, or maybe my third. I can't remember, because I get the shots and I felt like I had it anyway. Um so yeah, so I'm a repeat customer. Let's let's let's dive in. Now we're gonna focus on uh lawyers uh and litigators in particular. So we started off with talking about the the litigator mindset. So they're often trained to react quickly and decisively. Um and of course, you know, everybody's got different personalities in how they address their careers and their lives and everything, but they can change and they can adapt, or they can use different techniques depending on the kind of person. So, how how anyway, how does this reactive nature affect their approach to business development? And what what shifts in mindset that can help them become more intentional in their business development efforts?

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, I think you really nailed it with this this idea of being reactionary. You know, the thing I hear most about business development litigators is, well, I don't know when somebody's gonna get sued. I can't predict that. You know, I can I can track PACER or the courts, and I can send an email off to somebody saying, hey, I see you just got served, I'd love to defend you, to represent you, but that that trip is sailed. That that that was novel 10 years ago, but it's not 15 years ago, but it's not now. So I think that's a little bit of a hindrance. This idea that as a litigator, I am reactive and I can't be necessarily proactive. You know, and I hear from a lot of litigators, they'll say, Well, I met some general counsel, I met some business owners, and I said, Hey, if something happens, call me. Like, like that's the big business development hook. Remember me if something goes wrong. And I think you have to overcome that. And I think you have to look beyond the dispute and not wait for the dispute and look for other ways to build that relationship with the people that you want to serve. Yeah.

John Reed:

Yeah. So so let's so yeah, that makes sense. I mean, kind of understanding, and we'll we'll get into that, but kind of understanding somebody's business. I remember was it a it was a banker and an accountant. Different professionals have said, you know, we want to be kind of your partner uh in in in the business, not just, you know, helping you when something hits the fan. So that's that makes complete sense. We can talk about that more. But uh so let's talk about personality. You've got you know, I can relate to this very much. You've got extroverted and introverted attorneys, and people who know me now as a full-grown adult um would say you you you're extroverted. And I was always, uh but I wasn't, I was introverted. Um, I went into writing uh reporting about law. And so as a guy with a BA in communications and journalism, talking to lawyers was very intimidating as a young guy, and going to conferences and talking to lawyers was very intimidating. Going to Senate hearings to cover them, all very, you know, I was it was just not my thing. I was just, I don't know why, you know, I was introvert. But then you, you know, and then public speaking, forget it. But then it was a matter of, my God, I've got to make a living, A. And B, once you do it enough and see other people doing it, you're like, oh, okay, well, this isn't that hard, so get over it. And then so, you know, so professionally I had to go through that change. Now, the introvert in me also likes to go to those things and be alone for the next week. But but then I ended up running conferences and finding out that talking to lawyers, you know, well, after a while I knew what I was talking about, but also they don't always want to talk about law. They want to talk about their dogs. And you and I are gonna talk about dogs, but or their kids or whatever or vacation. So and then they also want to meet other people. So and some of them are are introverted. So sometimes I would find a lawyer who's not talking to anybody, and I would just go up and start talking and introduce them. So, anyway, you can have people who do that. That's a long way of saying you've worked with both types, extroverts and introverts. So, how do these personality types influence the way litigators might engage with clients and networking like I'm talking about and build uh visibility?

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background to to frame this. Uh, in 1992, 1993, a guy named Larry Richards undertook, I think is still the largest survey of lawyer personalities. I think he 3,000 lawyers at the ABA convention take the Myers-Briggs type indicator. And it, as I say, it's the largest collection of results. Uh, and I still refer to it. And, you know, there in Myers-Briggs lingo, there's there's 16 squares. So we talk about ENTJ, INTP, ISF, whatever. So litigators, according to that research, those who are extroverted, who are intuitive types, that's the end thing, and they are definitive uh and dominating, those people represent can I run down here? 19.3%. So if you divide 100 by 16, it's far less. So that's 20% of all lawyers fall into that. Then the next year down is a is a is you you switch from extroverted to introverted, and that adds another 10%. So you're at 30%, close to 30% of what are considered to be the top lawyer personalities, the most representative lawyer personalities that make up the game. And you know, there's safety in numbers. We live in an extroverted world. I am, believe it or not, I'm an introvert. I I think what I'm technically called or politically called as an ambivert. So I can play one or the other. But like you, if I've had a big day with people, I want to go do a crossboard in the corner in the fetal position. But so, so that's kind of a background for what we're talking about here. And it is, it's great. If you think about it, we want that lawyer to be extroverted. We want them to be thinking on their feet, not necessarily waiting to react, to be ahead of it, to be proactive. We want them to take control, especially in a foreign environment like a courtroom, right? For most people, that's a very foreign environment. And we want them to be decisive, we want them to object when they have to, we want them to ask definitive deposition questions. We want them to build the strategy of the case. That's great if you're inside the fishfole, looking inside the fishfole. But if you're dealing with that client who is an introvert, who is maybe not a censor or intuitive type, maybe is a feeler. So has more, and not to say bleeding heart liberal or anything like that, but more feeling for other people, taking other people's feelings and thoughts into account. And then maybe they're also that that what's called the P type where they don't make decisions that quickly. They're, you know, they're the ones that get buyers' remorse. So if you think about it, I'm a hard-charging litigator. I got the strategy, let's go. And I'm calling you and I want an answer on how we're gonna proceed. If I'm an introvert, please don't call me. Can you email me? Can you text me? Can you, you know, can you do it a different way? One, two, if I'm heading a company and what you're proposing is gonna impact a lot of people, that might rub me the wrong way too. I want to take care of my employees. And lastly, if you're pushing me for a decision and I haven't figured out all the different scenarios, I haven't processed it, you're making me very uncomfortable. So uh I I and it's not that you're gonna be a bad lawyer to that client or that client's not gonna be a good client to you, but wouldn't you rather have that chemistry and that connection so that not only is the result good, but the relationship is great. So I think that's the the one thing to overcome in this whole thing is is I'll just say this. When I administer Myers Friggs assessments to lawyers, inevitably two things happen. One, they get the results back and they go, wow, that's the way I that's why I think the way I do. Right. And then you wait for it. Wow, you mean other people don't think like me? So once you have those two revelations, now we're off to the races. Now we can tailor communication styles and um and and how decision-making styles affect clients' behavior and things like that.

John Reed:

Right, right. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that. I always about oh, other people think like me. I I feel like uh it might be too heavy, but I think even kids in elementary school and kindergarten, someone ought to say to them, by the way, there's a voice in your head, and everybody has one, you know, and and the way you see things isn't the way everybody else sees it. Like I I that would be helpful as a child to know that. Like, am I is something wrong with me? Am I a weirdo? So so these differences. Um so how do you when you have somebody that you see is is pretty introverted, what strategies work well for them in developing clients?

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, and and I I have a soft spot in my heart for introverts being one and being in an extroverted world. There's all this pressure. The the law, the business of law, law firms are go get that business, close that client, you know, go to that networking event and bring back, you know, 34 business cards and things like that, which is awful.

John Reed:

Terrible.

Tom Hagy:

So I think the idea is okay, let's take what you're good at. You can't stay in your office. You've got to get out there eventually, but let's do it on your terms. So if you like to write, let's get you writing some blog posts, right? But but as you're writing, is there somebody you can reach out to who you know and say, hey, I'm writing this post, I'd love to get your thoughts? Or we haven't met, but you know, I see you've got this experience. That's a one-on-one. We're all better one-on-one. And if I can control that channel and and have those conversations, get that input, I'm going to deliver an ultimate work product here with this document, but I've gotten advice and guidance and a helpful tip from somebody. Um, I I that's gonna make me feel good. It's gonna give me the momentum to try to reach out to somebody else. And then when I've when I've written the thing, then maybe I can share it with people I know and say, hey, I've written this, I'd love to get your thoughts, or has this happened to you? You can use it. So it's it's one-on-one marketing, or sometimes it's zero-on-one marketing, or one-on-zero marketing, or one on less, depending on how you look at it. But it's but I control it, I control the pace. It doesn't make the output any less valuable. And frankly, my insights might be really helpful. If I can go off on a tangent for a second, you know, litigators often say to me, What would I write a blog post on? You know, do I always have to write about the most recent case? You know, this decision came down. No. Why don't you write about something you did that was cool in your practice over the last week? Or if you're a newer lawyer, you just did your first X, or or you know, you just encountered your first issue. You can write about that without saying I'm a complete noob. You can you can make it interesting because it's interesting to you. And I think that that that gives people a lot of confidence to share as well. Yeah. I may be uncomfortable because I'm less than a year out or less than three years out, but I still can communicate what I'm going through, what I'm feeling, what I'm learning that will be of interest to others.

John Reed:

Yeah. And I I can see where some lawyers are well, not I know, because I work with them of all levels of experience. Some are very concerned what they say is can be used against them, or can be used against a client or things like that. There are certainly ways to navigate that. But you mentioned a couple of things. One is um uh collaborating with somebody, I don't know if you meant this necessarily, but collaborating with somebody on content, I have found, is one of the best ways to develop a relationship. So, for example, inviting somebody, a potential client or an existing client to be with you on a webinar on a subject or to co-author, you said, as a as a an article or something. That is a very organic way to develop that relationship and develop your and to share your expertise and to learn. So it's like a win-win-win-win. So I always encourage attorneys, you work, work with the people you want to represent and and create things, like being on this podcast, you know?

Tom Hagy:

Absolutely.

John Reed:

I could say too, you know, I have invited people, attorney, I said, you know, if you want to if you want to talk about this subject and you want to be on here with an in-house counsel or something, bring them because that's that's great for everybody. Um, the other thing about about writing is that as somebody who has always looked for podcast guests, but also conference speakers, webinar speakers, when I was a publisher, I was looking for guest authors all the time. You're gonna search now, you're gonna search and you're gonna find, oh, they've written something about this. They've already done some of the hard work. Let me let me get them on. Let me get them to do it here. So I'm completely with you on that. Creative content.

Tom Hagy:

It's look, it's like any other credential, right? I mean, presumably by the time you graduate law school, you've got two advanced degrees and you rely on that to get your first job. Well, if you have a library or a foundation of things you've written, whether they're articles, the white papers, blog posts, presentations you've given, and you have the PowerPoints, that's your bona fides. And you're right, it opens the door, and you've got instant credibility when people are looking for people to comment or speak or write.

John Reed:

So let's talk uh about, let's just, for lack of a better term, younger lawyers because but I'm always I'm always somebody who's defending the generations uh that I'm not in. So I'm a late boomer, I guess. Uh yes, I'm a boomer. And you know, then millennials and generation X and stuff. And I'm always hearing people, especially boomers, saying, Oh, these younger generations, they don't do this, they don't do that, they've got their head in the and you know, the one I really loathe is when they're lazy, like they're not. You know, it's like stop, just stop saying these things. Now they they are responding to the world around them too. Some people in their 20s and 30s, my God, picking up the phone is just what? Why are you calling me? Send me a text, you know, they would much rather. And I think I think if you're introverted at all, defaulting to text and email is it feels good. It's easy. Um, so but but some things about this, and you know, there's a lot of talk right now. There's a a podcast about young men, or it's called Lost Boys, and you know how young young men in particular are kind of getting lost in the mix. And because they're isolating into social media, they're not asking. One guy gave the example. He he met a young young man who he'd been on five dates and he didn't ask one of the girls out in person. They were all by text and things like this. And uh Scott Galloway is his name. And he's on with uh he does it with Anthony Scaramucci. Anyway, it's a it's a great thing about boys, and it's frightening, frankly, because they're getting they're getting their information and everything fed through social, and girls are very different. He gave an example of he had a birthday party for his one of his kids, and a boy would come in, and first of all, they're physically smaller than the girls. Now these are early teens, and uh physically smaller than the girls, and the kid won't look him in the eye, and doesn't really offer any he said then the then a young woman comes in, she's taller, she shakes his hand, looks him in the eye. He said she could be like the junior senator of Pennsylvania. Now, this is where she wants to go in her life, and where she's gonna intern and work the summer anyway. It's a it's I'll just plug that podcast too. Anyway, talking about younger, younger, all that as background, and then a lot of a lot of the younger lawyers are going through recently, they're working remotely. And you know, it's the same thing for kids, same things for young adults. So are you you seeing are you seeing differences in how early career attorneys, that's a better way to put it, approach business development? And how is the shift from in-office mentoring affecting that?

Tom Hagy:

I'm very concerned for newer attorneys. And and candidly, I don't necessarily think I think you're right to say newer attorneys and not necessarily younger attorneys, because we have people that are going to law school later, and sometimes they suffer the same issues as well. Look, the old adage is and it's true, you graduate from law school, but you don't know how to practice law, and you sure as hell don't know how to develop business. So you have to learn those things on the job. Now, you know, you you could have come out of law school as God's gift of legal research and writing, and that gives you a leg up, particularly in litigation. Maybe you did mood court, maybe you did mock trial, but until you get in your courtroom the first time, until you do your first trial, until you have your first and you develop your C legs, it's all new. You have to learn that. You can't implant a chip and be a great litigator. And I think it's equally as true for business development. You know, for a single time, if I'm going to a large law firm for practice, and clients are big, multi-million dollar, perhaps billion-dollar, whatever, huge law departments. Do I know how to ask for do I even know how to develop the relationship? Because there's such a hierarchy in my law firm and a hierarchy in that law department. How do I learn who I'm going peer-to-peer with at the different levels? So you have to get guidance. Um, you have to seek guidance, you have to be a sponge. And and I would say, you know, and there's there's all sorts of things here, Tom. I mean, when you've got client demands on billing, used to be partners would push more work down to associates, and that's not necessarily the same now. And so associates are looking to get their hours. So so partners are working more, not having the time, associates are trying to find the time someone else to justify their existence, but there's no time for those things. So that's so that's why I'm very concerned. I think there's also this kind of emphasis on formal business development. You know, we've got to put a plan in place for this associate. And I just think if you stop and and have a hallway conversation or come back from a client meeting and pull an associate and say, Let me tell you what just happened, really interesting conversation. You know, or or you bring the associate along, maybe the first time you're like, look, just drink and eat the crackers and don't say anything. But but then, you know, give them a little more rope, give them a little more trust, have them develop those relationships. So I I think and look, you can have that remotely too. It's harder, but you you can still have it. So I think this this work from home remote thing is is a little bit of an excuse by both sides. I think there's kind of equal culpability here. But let's face it, in the power uh dynamic, the associate's not going to feel as powerful as the partner. So the partner has to be the bigger person and do the teaching.

unknown:

Yeah.

John Reed:

I think that's really important. Yeah, that's that's true. Uh the in-person mentoring uh somebody early in their career, you know, I started when I started off as a writer, reporter, um what was I, 23? And uh and I was in a I was my desks my desk literally touched the desks of the other more seasoned guys, the managing uh editor and the and the other editor. And they were old guys, John. They were 41 and 45. And I thought, oh, these fossils, I can learn a lot from these guys. Well, to hear them on the phone and to see their writing style and to have them hear me on the phone and read my stuff and rip it up, it was painful, but it was so valuable, you know. It was like being put in the fire.

Tom Hagy:

Well, and I'm gonna go not the full way with you on these extreme generational differences, but I will say, you know, particularly boomers and Gen Xers, hey, it was good enough for the person who taught it to me, it's good enough for me. Certain types of matter rolls downhill, right? Whereas a lot of younger generations grew up in the everybody gets a trophy world. And can you please soft pedal my criticisms? Yeah, whatever. And I think that the law is is not forgiving. It can be a difficult practice, as we all know. There's a there's a blend there of having to develop a thick skin, but also in in the delivery, both sides. Yeah.

John Reed:

Yeah, yeah. I do think that the experience and intellect really influence. Like my kids grew up in that, everybody gets a trophy. Let's watch everybody's feelings world. And a lot of that was well intentioned, but the trophies were anyway. At one point, I think my the best one of the things I said to my kids, you know, I don't have a lot of wisdom as a father, but once in a while something would come up. I'd say, just so you know, when you grow up in the world, not everybody cares. Not everyone cares about your feelings. And I knew one day they're, you know, we were very liberal parents. I don't mean politically, I mean, you know, we let them do things. And I said, also so you know, your parents are very easy on you when the world isn't gonna be. And and I I knew their brains one day would figure that out, and they have. I mean, they're both in their 30s now, and they're productive contributors, professionals. They both ended up working with children with learning disabilities. So I sent them, you know, one thing I really sent them where do the money is here. But anyway, but they're they have a lot of compassion, they're both working on advanced degrees, and uh, you know, they figured it out, right? Yeah, we're not gonna get a trophy every time we get out of bed.

Tom Hagy:

But here's the thing, this is beautiful, and thank you for that, and congratulations to your kids. And for you being the parents of those children. You're right, not everybody cares, but yet, despite that sage wisdom, they found themselves going into an area where they have to care.

John Reed:

That's true.

Tom Hagy:

And I think that's a wonderful lesson and model for anybody really, but for lawyers too, litigators. You still have to care. You have to care about the client's kids, the the client's bottom line, uh, you know, all those other things. And then when you demonstrate that care, not only is I think it's good for your soul, but it helps you expand the relationship and it helps you become that trusted advisor. That's this cliche term, but I still use it, I still love it. Um, you know, I can be a I can be a fantastic legal advisor. Tom, you you, you know, you're a great lawyer, Tom, and I wouldn't do I wouldn't make a legal decision without talking to you. Thanks. That's great. But when when somebody comes to you and says, Tom, I I've relied on you, you're a fantastic lawyer. Where'd you buy your car? Right? It's it's like you're imputed with more wisdom than you may necessarily deserve. But because of the breadth and depth of the relationship you have, there's that comfort, that chemistry, that rapport. So yeah, so yeah, going back to this idea that you know we can all be hardened and say, well, nobody cares about me, so I'm not going to care about them. If you go the extra distance and you try to expand that and learn about other people, again, I think it gives you better perspectives, especially in this day and age. But I it I think it it uh it also makes you a better counselor.

John Reed:

Yeah, I think that's right. Showing a curiosity about the other person, I think is uh is meaningful.

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, I I always say that Alec Baldwin had it wrong. It's not ABC always be closing, always it's it should be ABC always be curious and to a lesser extent always be conversing, um, because that's how you learn.

John Reed:

Yeah, yeah. Let's jump into a litigator's brand and reputation. So how do you advise litigators who are profession who are who they want to serve, who do they want to be professionally? So, what's your advice to them about you know identifying the ideal client and how they can be the person to best represent them?

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, I'm gonna actually work backwards. I'm gonna go back to the fishbowl. Let's work from inside the fishbowl first. Understanding that a brand is a promise, first and foremost. It's not logos, it's not clever taglines, it's a promise. And we are in the trust business, we are in the service delivery business. The promise is that I am going to act and behave and conduct myself and assist you in the way that I've represented it, right? Um I'm not gonna guarantee results because I can't, but I can I can promise these other things about myself as a lawyer. And when what you put out there, what you represent, lines up with what you perform, that builds trust. So again, we're in the trust game, right? If I'm gonna be like this, I say I'm like this, I'm gonna be like this, and I'm like this, and you experience this, and it's great. You're ahead of the game. But let's break down brand for a second. So for lawyers, we're talking really about four different aspects here. I'd say first is role. I'm gonna go through these in a minute. Role, skill, context, and style. When I do workshops on this, I'll say, you know, what's your role? Inevitably, people say, I'm a litigator, you know, I'm a commercial litigator, I'm a trial attorney. Wrong answer. Um, I am a problem solver. I am a dispute resolution expert who works outside the courtroom. So that helps you get to where you want to be in your practice, just starting with what it is you ultimately want to achieve on behalf of the client and the whatever skills, litigation, you know, it could be problem solving, but but just don't go through the bullet points that you see on resumes. Look at your other skills too. I mean, interpersonal skills, empathy, you know, that's something that could be in that that that bucket too.

John Reed:

People never used to put that kind of thing on resumes.

Tom Hagy:

No.

John Reed:

I'm likable.

Tom Hagy:

Yeah. Well, first of all, I wouldn't put that in the way. Well, anybody that says I'm a people person is like, you're out. That's not, I hate that. Context is is okay, geographically, you know, I I represent, you know, estate planning clients in this metro area, or um I represent clients in this vertical, or mid-market companies in the tech space, whatever. You define your contacts there. The last one I think is the most important, and that's style. How do you do what you do? Okay, so if you're litigator, are you a hard-charging people? Are you more of a facilitator? Are you a bridge builder? You know, think about that. So if we if we look at those three three four things, excuse me, control and skill and context, it's kind of a how you know what of the equation. The differentiator is the style, right? There are a lot of attorneys out there who say, I'm a hard-charging attorney, I've got these skills, a long litigator, I've got these skills, and I work with these types of clients. But how you do what you do could be the thing that sets you apart. So I think, and that's a long belabored answer to your question, which is start first by thinking about those aspects of yourself. Understand the building blocks of who you are as a lawyer. And don't forget, you can also put in there who you want to be. So if you don't have the skills that you want to represent or promote, you can go get them. Right. If you want to change your role a little bit, if you want to change your context, you can do that. And similarly, you can you can say this is the personality. Or this is the style, the demeanor that I want to bring to what I do. You can make those choices.

John Reed:

Okay. And it and I think it has to be authentically your style. I've heard leading trial lawyers speak at my conferences over the years, and they would say to younger lawyers, like, don't try to be me. You know, figure out your style because you know you're going to it's going to be more authentic. It's going to be a lot easier for you to implement. But don't try to be me.

Tom Hagy:

I mean, certainly learn from great lawyers, but going back to what we talked about a few moments ago, this is the way I learned it. This is the way that it was taught to me. It was good for my mentor. It was good for me. You're going to do it too. So there's that danger that that message of maybe being heard, but isn't being, you know, parlay down to the next generation of lawyers. But you're right about authenticity. Absolutely. And I think I would hope that lawyers find passion in what they do. Not everybody does. No. So at least know what you're interested in and what motivates you and see if that can't be part of that brand. If you like tech and you want to work in IP, you're not necessarily going to be a great estate planning attorney, right?

John Reed:

No.

Tom Hagy:

If you want to work with people, maybe that's, you know, working on the council side of employment or working with in family law or something like that. If you like it to be a little more sterile is the wrong word, but a little more, you know, cut and drive by the books, whatever, great, corporate. I mean, you you gotta come to the table with some semblance of what interests you and then at least have that push you in the right direction.

John Reed:

Yeah. Okay. The uh so let's talk about reputation. You know, it's built over time. How do you what's what steps can litigators take to define what they want to be known for? I mean, we've talking about this a bit, but help you balancing your passion with practicability. Practicality.

Tom Hagy:

I would say, look, I I can't tell you how many times I've heard it, maybe you as well. Doing a good job gets you more business. Doing a good job is your calling card. No, doing a good job is table stakes. Doing a good job lets you stay at the firm or keep the doors open. It is not a growth move. So I I take that off the table and let let's disabuse people of that notion that that's what they have to do. I think it's incumbent on lawyers to think about what goes into a relationship and and always take the higher ground, take the initiative. We are insanely busy, all of us everywhere, it seems. And so if you leave a voicemail for somebody and you expect them to call you back in an hour, don't be offended if they don't. But at the same time, don't keep calling back and saying it's me again, it's me again, following up, following up, following up. Be creative in your pursuit and your relationship building. Um I think that the the thing that I would leave people with is always, always, always find ways to demonstrate what it's like to work with you, right? So if you are myopic and that I want to handle your litigation, and that's the only thing you're asking about. Are you vulnerable in your errors? Any errors? Are you exposed? You know, what's your litigation portfolio and what are the cases that you handle? Things like that, right? Okay, great, but how about your kids? How's your business going? What what are what are the successes that you've enjoyed? Because when I represent you as your attorney, I wanna I want to have a relationship with you. Because even look, if I'm a if I'm a personal injury attorney, hopefully, hopefully, I'm gonna represent you once, right? It's the shot I get. But I want to have a relationship with you so that if you know somebody else that finds themselves in a bad situation and needs my help, that you would think of me because you had a favorable experience, maybe not the result, and sometimes it's hard to divorce those two things, but that's what you're going for. And frankly, Tom, I think it's more fulfilling. If we go back to this trusted advisor thing, when you get to the trusted advisor level, not only is it you giving advice and your client is heeding that advice, but it's also you being personally fulfilled because you got that relationship with them. Not that they're doing blindly what you tell them to do, but that you've got that give and take. And if you want to really go into the economics of it, when you get to the trusted advisor level, your rate increase proof. The thought, talk about sticky lawyers, right? The thought about somebody leaving you as a lawyer to go to another firm is abhorrent. That lawyer's sticky, you're sticky with them. Yeah. So you maybe you can't get 20% increases every year, but you can maintain your premium and and maintain that relationship.

John Reed:

Yeah, as in any business, um maintaining the the client is way more, it's a lot less expensive uh than having to go out and get a new one.

Tom Hagy:

Um easier to keep it and then go find one. Yeah. That's right.

John Reed:

That's right. So but you hit on a thing too. Uh the the we're litigators, we you talked about this earlier, you know, a lot of the conversations are transactional, but you know, you you want to get into things of understanding their business. So like I'm I might ask a business client, you know, how are tariffs is that going to affect your business or whatever, or whatever's in the news. That's anything I say is controversial, but you know, you you rely on uh migrant workers, how is this affecting, you know, but asking them anything that shows an interest in their business and educates you and how to represent them. So I think asking those kinds of questions.

Tom Hagy:

You know, here's a gem, and I could only tell you anecdotally how powerful it is. Go to the client's business, right? So you're in another state and you're representing them, or it's or you they're a new client, go to the factory floor, go to the headquarters, learn by walking around. And let me tell you some stories about how this would work. First off, personally, in a prior life, I was invited by the general counsel of a company to meet with him in his offices. This company had acquired because of the owner an very impressive art collection. So our meeting may have lasted 15 minutes. I was there for an hour and a half being shown this $200,000, you know, whatever or more painting over the water cooler, right? And the thing in the lobby and whatever, and the pride that he had to show me these things is more valuable than anything we decided in the meeting.

John Reed:

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Hagy:

So there's that. The other thing is if you go to meet with the CFO and on the way to his office, you walk past the HR director's office or the director of sales or marketing or whatever. Maybe he'll stop and introduce you. Maybe you can find a way to get introduced. So you expand your relationship that way. So, you know, again, we would say, oh, well, you know, younger generations, they just want to be on the phone and they just want to text. For this type of thing, it's it's more efficient and easier for me to be in my office community with my clients. I'm saying that you took us out of the chair, go where the client is.

John Reed:

Watch your language.

Tom Hagy:

I well, I know. It's sorry. Now you got to check the explicit box on this. I'm sorry.

John Reed:

That's right. It's not for children. We're gonna create a lot of sorace with our use of Yiddish on this uh podcast. Now, the you know, we've we've been oh wow, we've been delightfully talking. Time is time is flying. Um so I wanna I do want to close with two things. One is um if you had you know two or three things that a litigator should do right now or start doing daily or weekly to develop business, what would those be?

Tom Hagy:

A couple things. Your client is at the at the center of a universe, your prospective client is at the center of a universe. In that orbit are other people. If it's a business owner, they may have a financial advisor, they may have an outside CPA, they may have a real estate agent, they may have whatever. As you get to know them, you can say, you know, who else do you rely on in your world? Because I, you know, I'd like to meet more people that you know. So, you know, I because I think it would just help me be a better representative or better counselor to you. So I think think about that augmented client, if you will. And you've got the end. You can say, hey, you know, we both work with with Joe, and I thought I I thought I'd come. Maybe I'd like to learn more about you and whatever. Now you're you're doubling the referral sources and you've got bona fides already because you've already got the client relationship that's mutually between you. So there's that. The other thing is networking events, client meetings, whatever. When you meet with somebody who can be a strategic partner to you, as client or other revenue generator for you, when you leave that meeting, whether it's wherever maybe windshield time, whatever, stop. Take a few minutes and say, What did I learn in that conversation that I can act on? Yeah. Okay. So we confuse follow-up with action. You know, you may say, well, I'm gonna follow up on Tuesday. I'm gonna call him on Tuesday. That's procedural. That's the method of how you're gonna contact the person next. When you say, What did I just learn that I can act on, whether it's the phone or texting or US mail or whatever, it doesn't matter because the action is I'm going to make that recommendation to them. I'm gonna give them that referral, I'm gonna send them that book on you know wines of Tuscany because they're going to Italy next week. That's right. And if you found other things to talk about besides the law, it's gonna make it so much more fun and interesting. And they're gonna be surprised because you've demonstrated what it's like to work with you. You're broader than your litigator title.

John Reed:

Right. Yeah, it's it's just so true. I mean, if you if you asked me about this uh this print of this painting that's over my shoulder about about boxing, I would bend your ear for the next hour and a half about the history of boxing because I was nuts for it for following it. And it would just mean so much, you know. Anyway, speaking of personal uh things, I'm I'm also a dog lover. There's one on the couch behind me snoozing away a 15-year-old English cock or spaniel, healthy as can be. He's deaf, but my gosh, he's he still acts like a puppy. We're so I love dogs. And so you're doing some work with with leader dogs. Tell tell us about that.

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, it's it's uh it's one of the greatest joys of my life, Tom. I'm currently honored to be the chairman of the board for Leader Dogs for the Blind. And it's uh an organization that helps people who are blind or low vision, uh, really not only across the country but around the world, to gain independence. The dog part is a little bit of a misnomer. Yes, we we do a fantastic job of from breeding to training and placement of dogs. But we also do white cane training, what's called orientation and mobility training. Um, and and I think apropos of what we're talking about here, one of the really interesting developments of the past year, we hired our first ever psychosocial director. So this is a person who's dealing with clients, clients who may be on the wait list, clients who may have left campus after getting their dog, clients who may have a dog that's retiring, all these different emotional things they're dealing with, which are unique to that situation. We are all in on the whole client. And it's it's really it's heartening, it's fulfilling, and and the board is great, the team there is great. I can't say enough.

John Reed:

And the name of it again? Leaderdogs for the blind. And that's the is that the website? It may be leaderdog.org. I'll put it in the show notes. Please do. Please do. Yeah.

Tom Hagy:

I can't say enough. What a what a Can I can I I want no, we're gonna wrap up here, and I've I'm I'm the person that has taken the most time talking here today. But I if I can go back before Leader Dog, as great as that was, uh I want to kind of leave with two stories, if I may, that kind of typifies the things we've been talking about. I was once counseling a guy, coaching him, and he called me about, I don't know, 10 o'clock in the morning and he said, Hey, I'm I'm having lunch with the general counsel of a company that we haven't worked with in a few years, and I don't really know what went wrong. What should I talk about? I don't know. I mean, do you do you think you should go in there and say, How did we screw up? Or what's I mean, why start with that? I said, just go talk. Just understand this person. So he called me back later in the day, and I said, Great, what did you learn that you can act on? And he said, Well, I I don't know, but the weirdest thing, this general counsel, she collects whiskey bottles, antique whiskey bottles. Great. So we went to everybody, the everything store, we went to Amazon together, and we found a coffee table book on distilleries or glassmaking in the alcohol interest, whatever it was. He had it sent overnight. She couldn't call fast enough to say, thank you. I can't believe you picked up on that. Whatever. I couldn't tell you whether it led to business immediately, but it certainly warmed up to that relationship. Sure. So that's that idea of thinking beyond your litigation. And then the other story, which I like to tell is I was coaching another attorney who, when I start coaching attorneys, I start with where they are. I don't I don't have a playbook, right? We're not going to start on page number one of the textbook and you graduate eight chapters later. Where are you? And he said, you know, um, look, I gotta tell you, uh we're a we're a two minivan family. We got kids that are playing sports all the time. So he says, I'm leaving the office at 3 34, going home, putting on sweats, but I'm taking my trial case, in this case, to the food court at the hockey arena. And he said, I, you know, what do I do? And I said, Well, how about this? Leave the suit on, leave the trial case in the car, in the van, and go into the stands and just start talking to the other parents. Same question. What do I talk about? I don't know, right? How about that new Galaxy Samsung phone, right? How about those bears? I mean, you know, how is your child liking playing on this team, right? Um and and so, and kind of an introvert, so this was a little, you know, icky, a little prickly for him. But I was so pleased about, I don't know, a month or six six weeks later, we met again, and he came and he's kind of smiling. I said, What's the deal? And he said, Well, so I went to a hockey game, one of my son's hockey games over the weekend, and uh, I was talking to one of the moms, and the dad walked over and I had not met him yet. And so we were introduced, and the dad said to me, Oh, you're so-and-so, you're like the mayor of the rink. You know everybody from mayor. So, yeah, I love that. The mayor of the rink. So he went from in a very short time, and and God bless him for throwing himself into this, just talking. And the next story that goes on top of that is one of the dads that he met, the son, had recently joined the team because they had moved in from out of town. And the reason they had moved in from out of town was so this dad could become the new CEO of this company. And he says to the attorney I'm coaching, hey, we've got a tournament in Pittsburgh next weekend. What do you say we drive together? Oh my God.

John Reed:

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of time on the road together. Exactly. Exactly. That's a great story.

Tom Hagy:

A lot of messages and stories there, but I love those two stories. They kind of epitomize what success means to me and what I think you can be as a litigator or any attorney.

John Reed:

Yeah. Well, thanks for bringing me back to that. Well, John Reed, uh, we've been talking for an hour and it's flown by. I really enjoyed talking to you. I think people are going to enjoy this. I can't wait to get it out there. And let's let's talk again. I would love to.

Tom Hagy:

Uh this has been so fun for me. This is easy. This is great. This is this is what I do.

John Reed:

All right, I've got to turn my mic down a little. Oh yeah, you're coming through loud and clear. I've got to stop saying all these filler words, John. So, you know, maybe maybe I should have a uh a tip jar or something for every time I say so and every time I say gotcha. I don't know if you listen to your own podcast a lot. Man, I annoy me so much. Totally. Is that a real background? Because you live in a beautiful if it's if it's real, you live in a beautiful uh place. No, that's I I'm I'm in a van by the river. Van down by the river. One of the best. Gosh, that's kind of your profession, isn't it? Yep. You're not exactly a motivational speaker, but you're in that John Candy. No, it's not John Candy. Chris Farley. I put my heavy set comedians into uh into one file. I'm fresh off of COVID.

Tom Hagy:

Good for you.

John Reed:

And I'm thank you. It's a filter, and I am feeling, and I've had my first cup of coffee. You know, your taste buds really go berserk. Coffee tasted awful like battery acid. I had it today. I'm having it today, and I am jacked. You know, I've got I slept fairly well. I'm off of COVID. Wow. Coffee's caffeine, it's a lot. It's it really gets you rolling.

Tom Hagy:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think more children should drink it, actually.

John Reed:

Yeah, that and smoking cigarettes. So no, we're against that.

Tom Hagy:

Just just I think I'm on a record for recording, yeah, for both of us. Bad. Very bad.

John Reed:

Stay in school, don't smoke. I told my kids at a certain age, I said, uh I don't, you know, because tattoos and getting your nose pierced. I said, I don't care. Get all the tattoos you want to pierce whatever, and just don't smoke. Boy, did they take me up on it. Uh the tattoos are quite quite elaborate. Excuse me. Hit my cough. Hold on and hit my cough button. Did that work?

Tom Hagy:

Yes. Oh my gosh, you're you're like Mel Tormet now.

John Reed:

Yes, I had to clear some things out.